The Electronic Intifada Podcast 17 November 2022
The technology will be used by Israel and its military to further surveil, contain and expel Palestinians.
Ariel Koren, who worked at Google, announced in August that she was quitting the tech giant over what she says was a hostile work environment, retaliation and illegal actions by the company after she became a vocal protester of Project Nimbus.
Koren and Amazon worker Bathool Syed are part of the No Tech for Apartheid campaign, which calls on major Silicon Valley companies to drop their contracts with Israel.
The campaign says that more than 1,000 Google and Amazon workers have mobilized against Project Nimbus, and in September, workers organized a day of action in several cities across the US.
More than 25,000 supporters have signed a petition in support of the campaign, and to call on Google to stop punishing workers who stand up for Palestinian rights.
Syed explains that the No Tech for Apartheid campaigners “believe the tech could do a lot of good, but it’s [about] what it’s being chosen to be used for – and, importantly, in this case, what the companies are allowing for it to be used for without any type of control, any overseeing any of what it can be used for in terms of violence, increased violence, increased discrimination against Palestinians, in their own homes, in their own land.”Koren tells us that Google has attempted to sweep the growing protest movement “under the rug and to portray this as being a small group of workers,” and to make an example out of her “to scare the rest of the workforce into silence and keep this tucked away.”
But with their act of retaliation, she adds, “the opposite has occurred. Because when Google sought to retaliate against me, workers did not get scared into silence. Instead, they became activated, they became additionally and increasingly angry about Project Nimbus, and about Google’s culture as a whole.”
And now, she says, “all of these voices that Google was trying to silence are now coming to the forefront. … We’re not going anywhere until Project Nimbus does. And this movement is here to stay until something happens.”
Articles we discussed
- “Google’s complicity in Israeli apartheid: How Google weaponizes diversity to silence Palestinians,” Ariel Koren, Medium
- “Amazon and Google: Partners in Israeli apartheid,” Jonathan Cook
- “Google employee who protested key role in contract with Israel quits,” Nico Grant, New York Times
- “Palestinian, Jewish, Muslim and Arab Google employees speak out,” Jewish Diaspora in Tech
Photographs of No Tech for Apartheid day of action by Max Renn
Video production by Tamara Nassar
Theme music by Sharif Zakout
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Full transcript
Lightly edited for clarity.
Nora Barrows-Friedman: Welcome back to The Electronic Intifada Podcast, I’m Nora Barrows-Friedman. At the end of August Google worker Ariel Koren announced that she was quitting the tech giant over what she says was a hostile work environment, retaliation and illegal actions by the company. She also became a vocal protester of Project Nimbus, a billion-dollar contract between Google, Amazon and Israel to build data centers in Israel on behalf of the Israeli military and government. Koren and other tech workers started speaking out about the contract, and Ariel says that Google retaliated by trying to force her out of her position.
Last year, as Jonathan Cook wrote for The Electronic Intifada, two employees at Google and Amazon went public about Project Nimbus, and in their letter to The Guardian, gave examples of how Israel would be able to use Amazon and Google’s computer services to help enforce the occupation. Data would be used to identify Palestinian homes for demolition and what are often moves toward land clearances by Israel to build or expand illegal settlements. The data would also be used to guide attacks on Gaza, as well as assist Israel’s Iron Dome missile interception system. The employees added that Google and Amazon will be directly implicated in Israel’s wider apartheid policies. With Project Nimbus serving the Israel Lands Authority, which not only allocates lands for illegal settlements, but overseas discriminatory policies in land allocation inside Israel that openly privileges Jews over the fifth of the population, who are Palestinian natives.
Since Ariel Koren quit and went public about her refusal to aid and abet Israel’s apartheid system with Google and Amazon technology, tens of thousands of people have signed a petition calling for No Tech for Apartheid. There was a day of action in September, where tech workers in New York City, San Francisco, Durham and Seattle escalated the pressure on their companies to drop the contracts with Israel. Joining us to talk today to talk about this is Ariel Koren and Amazon worker Bathool Syed, both with the No Tech for Apartheid campaign, Ariel and Bathool, it’s so good to have you with us today on The Electronic Intifada Podcast.
Ariel Koren and Bathool Syed: Thank you.
Nora Barrows-Friedman: So, Ariel, let’s start with you. Let’s get into what Project Nimbus is. And it should be noted that just after you went public with your resignation, Google put out a statement denying that its products would be used to aid intelligence services or bolstering the military. The company spokesperson said that the contract, quote, “is for workloads running on our commercial platform by Israeli government ministries, such as health care, transportation and education.”
And they said that these protesters were misunderstanding the contract. But Israel itself has boasted that, quote, “the project is intended to provide the government, the defense establishment and others with an all-encompassing cloud solution.” And recently, Google was forced to admit that this is indeed the case. Can you bring us up to speed here and tell us what Project Nimbus is, and why you decided to quit in protest?
Ariel Koren: Yes, as you mentioned, Project Nimbus is a $1.2 billion contract between Google, Amazon and the Israeli government, and includes the Israeli military as one of the beneficiaries. Google and Amazon have, under this contract, no right to regulate which agencies within the Israeli government can become beneficiaries of the contract or have access to the tools that are built out through the contract. So an example is that the ILA, or the Israel Lands Authority, which is the agency responsible for illegal settlement expansion, is one of the beneficiaries of the contract.
Another thing that we find to be extremely concerning is that there’s actually a clause within the contract that stipulates that Google and Amazon have no right to pull out of the contract, even in the event of worker protest or boycott pressure. So essentially, the contract is kind of like t to self-insulate against any sort of, you know, any sort of voices of opposition or folks who try to hold Google and Amazon accountable, to holding the Israeli government accountable for the way that they use tools. And in the event that the Israeli government uses the tools provided by Google and Amazon, which are extremely powerful AI tools to violate Palestinian human rights, you know, the company’s hands are tied, they’re wiping their hands have any sort of responsibility to regulate the way that the tools get used. So these are some of the extremely concerning facts about this contract.
As you mentioned, well, Amazon had not provided a statement at all about Project Nimbus until very recently, Google had provided a statement but was essentially gaslighting, you know, thousands and thousands of members of the general public, its own shareholders, its own users and its own workforce by saying that, you know, the protesters and the folks who have been speaking out about Project Nimbus have been quote unquote, misguided. They’ve been denying the fact that this is indeed a military contract, right? It is, it is a contract that is with the Israeli government, but it’s – but through the contract, they are going to be providing AI tools to the Israeli military.
Google has been denying this for a very long time, which constitutes gaslighting essentially, because we know, you know, this has been reported on extensively at this point, the fact that the contract actually is going to be benefiting the Israeli military, and that the military will have essentially unrestricted access to whatever tools it needs through Project Nimbus. One of the really big recent kind of victories that we had, as part of the No Tech for Apartheid campaign is that hundreds of workers and community organizers and activists walked out of Google and Amazon and protested outside, as you mentioned, in four different cities outside of the Google and Amazon offices. And immediately following these protests, Google finally admitted on record that the military was actually going to be a beneficiary of Project Nimbus. And, you know, something that we emphasize, that we emphasize a lot is that we don’t believe that Google should be contracting with governments and militaries that are violating human rights, right, regardless of what the details of this contract is, by providing tools to an apartheid settler-colonial entity, Google is enabling – and not only enabling, but profiting off of violence against Palestinian people.
But the fact that Google is actually providing tools to a military that is violating human rights, and breaking international law on a daily basis, is certainly cause for added concern. And that’s why – that, that is a huge piece of the motivation behind the No Tech for Apartheid campaign. It’s holding companies like Google and Amazon accountable, because they’re large companies, they’re supposed to be a public good. They’re ubiquitous companies that most people, most if not all people who have internet access are using. And they shouldn’t be contracting in a way that’s unregulated and unrestricted with powerful militaries, really, with any militaries, period. So this is, you know, this is kind of some context around the concerns that we have.
Nora Barrows-Friedman: Bathool, you currently work at Amazon and you’re part of the No Tech for Apartheid campaign. Can you talk a little bit about what it’s been like working, you know, with activists, tech workers, and what the company’s response has been thus far, if there’s been any response?
Bathool Syed: Absolutely, yeah, it’s been really encouraging to see the engagement of workers throughout this period of time that we’ve been working on the campaign. We started back in May of 2021. And, you know, we really had a dream of having live, in-person actions, never knowing if that’s something that we would be able to get workers to engage with. So it’s been wonderful to see that we’ve had that continued and sustained support by workers along with the public. Another thing that’s been huge for us in the workplace is although there have been, and we’ve been fully inspired by workers, tech workers in the past to have done similar campaigns like the We Won’t Build It campaign, against facial recognition technology, campaigns against contracts with ICE and police and others like that, and have come together in the past. But this specific issue about the harm that tech is doing to Palestinians has not been spoken about in the corporate workplace at this scale.
So being able to do that is really big for us to know that this is something that we can talk about not only in the workplace, but as workers we can also talk about outside of the workplace as well and have that engagement from other members of the community. One thing that was huge to us as well is seeing the progression from a small group of workers to a larger group of workers up to the shareholder resolutions, which maybe we’ll talk about further later, but that were brought up earlier this year, which was the first time that Israeli apartheid was named in resolutions like this. So that’s been great. In terms of response from the companies, we really haven’t had much of any.
Amazon specifically we haven’t heard from leadership in response to the letter around Nimbus that was sent last year, almost exactly a year ago. We still haven’t heard anything til this day. We haven’t heard from the initial petition that we sent in May either. And it’s been pretty much radio silence. We haven’t heard anything kind of for the contract as much as we haven’t heard anything against it from leadership, from that corporate perspective. So we really have no idea where they stand. And as workers, it is disheartening to see that so many of us have raised this issue and have seen a complete lack of response from leaders.
Nora Barrows-Friedman: Yeah, I mean, they’re probably just hoping that it goes away, right? That protesters just get bored.
Ariel Koren: Just to add one thing to the credit of Bathool and the other Amazon workers who have been organizing, you know, it’s been, there’s definitely been a discrepancy in terms of the reactions between both companies, Google has engaged in, unfortunately, a violent way towards workers, but they’ve at least engaged. But you know, one thing that’s really important to highlight is that Amazon workers have been mobilizing alongside Google workers to the exact same extent. And Amazon finally did provide a statement after the protest, which was huge. We’ve been waiting for a statement from Amazon for a really long time. And they actually did come up with their first public statement immediately following the protests as well. And it shows that, you know, worker organizing works, we are applying the kind of pressure we need to be applying and we’re hoping for more of that to come as well.
Nora Barrows-Friedman: What did the statement exactly say, did it acknowledge that Project Nimbus is going to be a tool to aid and abet Israel’s apartheid system?
Bathool Syed: It was a very interesting statement, actually. So it didn’t really acknowledge anything about the contracts specifically, the statement said that their AWS is committed to offering their technology to all customers worldwide. So that was kind of the – That’s the extent of what they said about the contract itself is very vague. The other piece, interestingly enough that they shared in their one and only statement was that they support workers’ right to say what they want, which is not something that we ever expected, that they would come out in a statement to actually put, you know, pen to paper and say that so that was that’s also been an interesting thing that that’s recently developed.
Nora Barrows-Friedman: And, Ariel, you, you were forced out and in a retaliatory way, by Google, in a way that I mean, you know, when we talk about this as not just a matter of principled protest, but it’s also a labor issue. Can you talk about the way you were treated at Google, and for being outspoken as an anti-Zionist Jewish worker who opposes this contract? Can you talk about – a little bit about what happened?
Ariel Koren: Yes, we have been organizing around this issue for a long time. And when I say this issue, it’s this – It’s this contract, it’s Project Nimbus. But it’s, it’s broader than just Project Nimbus, because this is really just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Google’s complicity in Israeli apartheid violence. There’s just a very deep-seated, deeply ingrained history of repression and censorship of Palestinian voices, mostly folks who are Palestinian with the company, but also all voices that seek to express solidarity with Palestinian people across the company. You know, we see folks being issued HR warnings on a regular basis, just because they share news about what’s happening in Palestine, or people who are reprimanded, who are, you know, there are actually kind of material, there are material impacts on people’s career opportunities, mobility within the company, and just a very, very deeply entrenched culture of retaliation against Palestinian folks and all folks who act in solidarity with Palestinian folks within the company.
So this has been something that we’ve been organizing on for a long time, when we initially kind of started, for myself as an anti-Zionist Jew and many other folks who are anti-Zionist, be it because they’re anti-Zionist Jewish folks, or Palestinian folks are just folks who, who feel that they want to act in solidarity with Palestinian people, the moment that we really felt that we needed to start to kind of bring that part of ourselves to work was in May of 2020. It was amidst the Black Lives Matter uprisings. And the company, Google, had issued a donation to the Movement for Black Lives, which many folks felt was kind of – it was a good thing in the sense that it was kind of the bare minimum that Google could have done at that moment, really the bare minimum. And unfortunately, myself and every other Jewish employee within the company received an email where the company was formally apologizing for the Movement for Black Lives donations.
And when we read, you know, like, why were they apologizing for that we learned that the Jewish ERG, which is called – ERG means employee resource group, so it’s kind of like a set of different groups that are meant to represent folks who have a marginalized identity, right? So there’s a lot of examples. There’s the Muslim Googlers Network, there’s the Black Googlers Network. There’s like the Gayglers, which serves as a space for like LGBTQ Googlers, right? These are just like different examples. So what we learned is that the Jewish ERG called the Jewglers, or the Jewish Googlers, had issued a formal complaint to the company stating that the Movement for Black Lives donations had been anti-Semitic because of the fact that the Movement for Black Lives had expressed solidarity with the Palestinian cause.
And as a result, Google was issuing a formal apology for that, essentially, you know, saying that we’re sorry that this was this was anti-Semitic. So we were just horrified. Yeah, it is unbelievable. And it was really, really horrifying. And so we immediately organized a petition calling on company leadership to rescind their apology, and to stand firmly by their donation with the Movement for Black Lives. And instead of doing that, they responded by issuing, amidst the uprisings, they issued a $400,000 formal company donation to a group of four different right-wing non-Black groups. And they said that the reason they were issuing this donation was in the name of fighting anti-Semitism. But these groups were all aligned with the Trump administration, they were all under right-wing leadership, all of these groups had as their kind of core organizing pillar support for the Israeli occupation, support for the Israeli military. They all had formal relationships with the Israeli military. And it was extremely concerning. So that was kind of like the point at which we started organizing.
And it was over a year later, during the uprisings in Palestine, and the escalating violence during which over 250 people were killed by Israeli military violence in Gaza, at which point, we learned that Google was kind of silently and secretly rolling out a billion-dollar contract where they were going to be profiting off of fueling this military violence. And that, for us, was a moment where we really ramped up our organizing and realized we needed to focus our efforts on the contract. So that’s just kind of some background. And in terms of the retaliation, myself, Bathool on the Amazon worker side, and Gabriel, who’s another Google worker, the three of us were kind of like the three workers who originally went public to oppose these contracts. And immediately afterwards, Google communicated to me that they had decided to relocate my role overseas effective immediately, I was at the time based in San Francisco.
And they told me that I was needed urgently in the Sao Paulo, Brazil office, and that I would have 17 business days to confirm my move, to accept that move. And if not, you know, I would be out of the job, essentially. And this was in the middle of the pandemic, it was in the middle of the surge of Omicron. Folks from the Brazil office were all working from home. So the, you know, this, this purported business urgency around me being in Sao Paulo was just completely baseless, there was – there was really no foundation on which to argue that this was a that this was justified by business. And when I brought, you know, the news about this occurring to all of my co-workers, their immediate response was this is very clearly retaliation. And so that was kind of the background of what happened.
Nora Barrows-Friedman: And since you publicly left, has there been any further communication from Google HR or anything, or they were just like, Fine, you’re gone. And that’s it.
Ariel Koren: Well, my initial response was to reach out to my co-workers, folks who are also members of the Alphabet Workers Union, and just folks I had been organizing with, in addition to just people who were on my team, and I told them, You know, I think I’m gonna have to leave the company, like they’ve made it really clear, if I if I, if I don’t accept the move to Sao Paulo, I will have to leave and I didn’t have, you know, it just didn’t make sense. For me, it wasn’t feasible for me to move my life to a different hemisphere in the middle of the surge of Omicron. So I just thought I was gonna have to leave, but people encouraged me, you know, you should really fight this. You should not accept this. And it was that encouragement that kind of gave me the wherewithal to, to move forward and to fight this case.
So you know, my co-workers organized a petition internally, there are now over 800 folks from within Google who have signed the petition calling on Google to rescind that act of retaliation, and over 25,000 people signed a public petition to the same effect. So I think we did really everything we could and I was fighting, you know, this all occurred in November. I resigned, I guess now it’s a little over a month ago. So we were finding this for almost a year. And unfortunately, the company just refused to budge and became increasingly hostile towards me. And so it became clear that I was going to have to resign at that point.
Nora Barrows-Friedman: Amazing. Bathool, I want to come back to you. Ariel was talking about in the broader sense how tech giants like Google and Amazon claim that they’re serving people in ethical ways while pursuing these contracts with Israel, but it’s not – it’s not, you know, it’s just like this is just what we do as a company. We are, you know, all, anywhere, everywhere around the world, anyone can use our services, sort of, you know, remark. But as journalist Jonathan Cook wrote for us a year ago, quote, “pressure may be mounting on many companies to distance themselves from Israel over its occupation and apartheid policies. But for Amazon, and Google, it is those very practices of occupation and apartheid, that are a tech seam waiting to be mined.”
Can you talk about this and kind of the, you know, the this like, explosion of, of tech contracts with Israel, in partnership with Amazon, Google, you know, other, you know, weapons companies, and, you know, Hewlett Packard, for example, all these biometric engineering technologies that are contracted with the Israeli military. Can you talk a little bit about Israel as this, you know, this tech seam waiting to be mined? And how companies like Amazon are looking at that?
Bathool Syed: Yeah, that’s a super interesting question. I think we see often within the tech world generally, and even when I used to live in the Bay Area. So in that kind of Silicon Valley community, what is often talked about in regards to Israel in tech, is the innovations that Israel has come up with, the startups having the most unicorns, all of those kinds of things, right. And I think for companies, they see that in one light, they don’t look at what the technology may be used for. That’s one of the biggest things that we have discussed, and it’s in all of the letters and things that we’ve published, is that the tech is not the issue.
The tech inherently is not the problem. And actually, we believe the tech could do a lot of good, but it’s what it’s being chosen to be used for and what the companies I think, importantly, in this case, what the companies are allowing for it to be used for without any type of control, any overseeing any of what it can be used for in terms of violence, increased violence, increased discrimination against Palestinians, in their own homes, in their own land. But we don’t talk about any of that, right? When it comes to Israel and tech, we only talk about the AI tools, what are the AI tools used for? That’s not an aspect that is discussed at all.
So I think it’s very one-sided when it comes to Israel and tech in general. And for these companies, of course, you know, there is that financial boost for them as well for entering into contracts like this, knowing the market that they’re entering, entering there. So it’s very, it’s very one-sided. And it’s also very kind of tunnel-visioned in a sense that it’s not looking at what the broader repercussions can be for entering into contracts like this, let alone against Palestinians and Palestine. But the precedent that this also sends for contracts that they can have in the future with other militarized groups and the harms that that can have overall.
Nora Barrows-Friedman: Yeah. Yeah. The – let’s go back to the day of action that was planned across the US that was led by tech workers. What’s happened since those days of actions and and what’s next, for the No Tech for Apartheid movement? How is this campaign growing and what are the next steps?
Bathool Syed: Yeah, so with the day of action, it was a wonderful opportunity for us to be able to reach more people. A lot of times, you know, we kind of struggled, I think a lot of times, activism is like this specifically kind of activism in the workplace or corporate activism, whatever you want to call it, where we feel a lot of times like we’re only able to reach a certain group of people who may have already wanted to be engaged already. That being said, the day of action was a wonderful tool in spreading the message to people who may not have heard about this, who may not, you know, a lot of us, we only found out about Nimbus by chance, it’s not something that’s been greatly publicized. So even opportunities, you know, like this, Nora, are super helpful for us to be able to reach other people.
But there’s something special about having it live and in person and seeing people and if you’re walking by kind of wondering, what’s that about? And then you go and you Google, of course, you have to use Google, right? And then you figure out what it was, right? There’s a lot of just overall unawareness about what Israel does, I think generally, amongst a lot of these groups of tech workers. So this is, I think, an avenue for them to start to become aware of what’s happening. Also seeing since then we’ve had more workers who were actually public on the day of action itself, who spoke at the actions and hadn’t previously done that. Which is huge, of course, for them to actually use, you know, it’s not even just behind the screen actually live and in person speaking against this. And workers since then have been reaching out, we’ve been able to get in touch with a lot more workers who are really excited to be a part of this and really want to help push the companies to end these contracts and others like them.
So we have been able to work with more workers since then, and are really just looking at ways that we can continue to expand this, you know, we’re looking at students, there is as part of the No Tech for Apartheid campaign, there is a student pledge to not take jobs at Amazon or Google. So students who are potential workers, of course, like the largest pool of workers that Amazon and Google have, especially as they want, at a low cost, are now encouraged to not take those jobs due to this contract. So there’s just multiple different ways that we’re starting to get more involved with, or that we have been, but are now seeing more opportunities to get involved with other parts of the community and get more tech workers brought in. But I’ll let Ariel speak on anything else,
Ariel Koren: Fully, fully agree with everything that Bathool just said. You know, I think it was, I think Google was kind of attempting to sweep things under the rug. And to portray this as being, you know, a small group of workers, a very marginal, you know, group of workers. And I think with their act of retaliation, their attempt was, oh, let’s get rid of this worker who spoke out, and we can kind of scare the rest of the workforce into silence and keep this kind of keep this, you know, tucked away. And the opposite has occurred. Because when Google sought to retaliate against me, workers did not get scared into silence. Instead, they became activated, they became additionally and increasingly angry about Project Nimbus, and about Google’s culture as a whole. You know, as a whole.
Google has this culture of repressing any sort of opposition to Google’s complicity in Israeli apartheid violence. And now, all of this, all of all of these voices that Google was trying to silence are now coming to the forefront. And I think, you know, when the the week that I resigned, there were 15 Google workers who shared out anonymous testimonies, most of whom were Palestinian, others were Arab and Muslim and anti-Zionist Jewish allies to Palestinians, who are workers also within Google, who shared their firsthand accounts of being silenced at the company, there were folks who shared – there was one story of an incredible friend and co-worker of ours, is a Palestinian co-worker, who was literally reprimanded just for wearing a keffiyeh in the workplace, for wearing traditional Palestinian clothing in the workplace. They were literally told that they had to, you know, remove their their picture that was on their internal team page, because of the fact that they were wearing Palestinian clothing. There was another worker who just wrote a message, you know, “Free Palestine” in their internal company bio. And many people share out messages in their internal company – That’s not out of the out of the ordinary, but they particularly put a message in support of Palestinian freedom, they were issued a formal warning by HR. And ultimately, when they refused to remove it, their bonus was taken away. And they were given a performance deduction on their performance evaluations.
So you know, there were just so many stories that people were bravely sharing about their experiences. One Palestinian co-worker wrote, it’s impossible to express any sort of disagreement with the war waged on Palestinians without being called into HR, with the threat of being issued a formal warning and being retaliated against – that’s kind of, quote unquote, quoting this Palestinian co-worker from Google. So there were 15 folks who are bravely sharing these stories, and they’re representing hundreds more. And then the following week, we now have these days, this day of action where we have four mass protests, these huge protests with this huge turnout and all of these workers chanting and marching and screaming in the streets, holding Google and Amazon accountable.
And so I think the biggest impact here is that this is no longer just like one or two or three workers speaking out. This is – there are 10 workers who are public, but there’s over a thousand workers at Google who have put their names on a petition, and there are hundreds of workers who are starting to become activated around this. And so it’s become really clear that if Google continues to just try to sweep this under the rug, the voices of the workforce will get louder and louder. And we’re not going anywhere until Project Nimbus does. You know, we’re not going anywhere. And this movement is here to stay until something happens.
Nora Barrows-Friedman: Ariel Koren and Bathool Syed, if people want to engage with the No Tech for Apartheid campaigns, send it to their friends and family members who may be workers at Amazon and Google, where can they go?
Bathool Syed: There’s two places I think that I would first recommend. One is the NoTechForApartheid.com website where you can read more about the campaigns, you can sign on yourself, find publications, all those things. The second is a worker-led Twitter account, which is @DropNimbus. And there, we’ll be sharing updates and amplifying other voices and all of those things in real time.
Ariel Koren: And just the one thing to add is bit.ly, Bit.ly/Google-voices, you can actually read, and please amplify, the voices of Palestinian Google workers who have shared out their experiences and their stories. Because, you know, I think the biggest tool that Google has in its toolkit right now is the suppression and the silencing of Palestinian voices within the company and voices that act in solidarity with Palestinians. And so, you know, to the greatest extent possible, we need to amplify these stories and these voices and show Google that we will be holding them accountable.
Nora Barrows-Friedman: And we’ll have all of those links up on the blog post that accompanies this podcast episode on The Electronic Intifada, Ariel Koren and Bathool Syed, thank you so much for all that you’re doing and all that you’ve done already, and we will, we will stay in touch and keep on this story. Thank you so much for being with us on The Electronic Intifada Podcast.
Bathool Syed: Thank you for having us.
