Snipers ordered to shoot children, Israeli general confirms

Ali Abunimah Rights and Accountability 22 April 2018

Israeli Brigadier-General (Reserve) Zvika Fogel (Wikipedia)

An Israeli general has confirmed that when snipers stationed along Israel’s boundary with Gaza shoot at children, they are doing so deliberately, under clear and specific orders.

In a radio interview, Brigadier-General (Reserve) Zvika Fogel describes how a sniper identifies the “small body” of a child and is given authorization to shoot.

Fogel’s statements could be used as evidence of intent if Israeli leaders are ever tried for war crimes at the International Criminal Court.

On Friday, an Israeli sniper shot dead 14-year-old Muhammad Ibrahim Ayyoub.

The boy, shot in the head east of Jabaliya, was the fourth child among the more than 30 Palestinians killed during the Great March of Return rallies that began in Gaza on 30 March.

More than 1,600 other Palestinians have been shot with live ammunition that has caused what doctors are calling “horrific injuries” likely to leave many of them with permanent disabilities.

As eyewitnesses and video confirmed, the child Muhammad Ayyoub posed no conceivable danger to heavily armed Israeli occupation forces stationed dozens of meters away behind fences and earthen fortifications on the other side of the Gaza boundary when he was killed.

Even the usually timid United Nations peace process envoy Nickolay Mladenov publicly declared that the slaying was “outrageous.”

Targeting children

On Saturday, Brigadier-General Fogel was interviewed by Ron Nesiel on the Israeli public radio network Kan.

Fogel is the former chief of staff of the Israeli army’s “southern command,” which includes the occupied Gaza Strip.

Ahmad Tibi, a Palestinian lawmaker in Israel’s parliament, drew attention to the interview in a tweet.

A recording of the interview is online (it begins at 6:52). The interview was translated for The Electronic Intifada by Dena Shunra and a full transcript follows this article.

The host Ron Nesiel asks Fogel if the Israeli army should “rethink its use of snipers,” and suggests that someone giving orders “lowered the bar for using live fire.”

Fogel adamantly defends the policy, stating: “At the tactical level, any person who gets close to the fence, anyone who could be a future threat to the border of the State of Israel and its residents, should bear a price for that violation.”

He adds: “If this child or anyone else gets close to the fence in order to hide an explosive device or check if there are any dead zones there or to cut the fence so someone could infiltrate the territory of the State of Israel to kill us …”

“Then his punishment is death?” Nesiel interjects.

“His punishment is death,” the general responds. “As far as I’m concerned then yes, if you can only shoot him to stop him, in the leg or arm – great. But if it’s more than that then, yes, you want to check with me whose blood is thicker, ours or theirs.”

Fogel then describes the careful process by which targets – including children – are identified and shot:

“I know how these orders are given. I know how a sniper does the shooting. I know how many authorizations he needs before he receives an authorization to open fire. It is not the whim of one or the other sniper who identifies the small body of a child now and decides he’ll shoot. Someone marks the target for him very well and tells him exactly why one has to shoot and what the threat is from that individual. And to my great sorrow, sometimes when you shoot at a small body and you intended to hit his arm or shoulder, it goes even higher.”

For “it goes even higher,” Fogel uses a Hebrew idiom also meaning “it costs even more.”

In this chilling statement, in which a general talks about snipers targeting the “small body of a child,” Fogel makes crystal clear that this policy is premeditated and deliberate.

While presenting unarmed Palestinian children as dangerous terrorists worthy of death, Fogel describes the snipers killing them in cold blood as the innocent, vulnerable parties who deserve protection.

“We have soldiers there, our children, who were sent out and receive very accurate instructions about whom to shoot to protect us. Let’s back them up,” he says.

Lethal policy

Fogel’s statements are no aberration but represent Israeli policy.

“Israeli officials made it clear that the open-fire regulations would permit lethal fire at anyone attempting to damage the fence, and even at any person coming within 300 meters of it,” the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem stated in a recent analysis of Israel’s illegal targeting of unarmed civilians who pose no threat.

“Nevertheless, all state and military officials have steadfastly refused to cancel the unlawful orders and continue to issue – and justify – them,” B’Tselem added.

B’Tselem has called on individual soldiers to defy such illegal orders.

Following its investigation of the “calculated” killings of unarmed demonstrators on 30 March, the first day of the Great March of Return rallies in Gaza, Human Rights Watch concluded that the lethal crackdown was “planned at [the] highest levels of the Israeli government.”

Two weeks ago, the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court issued an unprecedented warning that Israeli leaders may face trial for the killings of unarmed Palestinian protesters in the Gaza Strip.

Potential defendants would be giving any prosecutor a gift with such open admissions that killing unarmed people in an occupied territory who pose no objective threat is their policy and intent.

The question remains whether anything will finally pierce the shield of impunity that Israel has enjoyed for 70 years.

Full Transcript

Brigadier-General (Res.) Zvika Fogel interviewed on the Yoman Hashevua program of Israel’s Kan radio, 21 April 2018.

Ron Nesiel: Greetings Brigadier General (Res.) Zvika Fogel. Should the IDF [Israeli army] rethink its use of snipers? There’s the impression that maybe someone lowered the bar for using live fire, and this may be the result?

Zvika Fogel: Ron, let’s maybe look at this matter on three levels. At the tactical level that we all love dealing with, the local one, also at the level of values, and with your permission, we will also rise up to the strategic level. At the tactical level, any person who gets close to the fence, anyone who could be a future threat to the border of the State of Israel and its residents, should bear a price for that violation. If this child or anyone else gets close to the fence in order to hide an explosive device or check if there are any dead zones there or to cut the fence so someone could infiltrate the territory of the State of Israel to kill us …

Nesiel: Then, then his punishment is death?

Fogel: His punishment is death. As far as I’m concerned then yes, if you can only shoot him to stop him, in the leg or arm – great. But if it’s more than that then, yes, you want to check with me whose blood is thicker, ours or theirs. It is clear to you that if one such person will manage to cross the fence or hide an explosive device there …

Nesiel: But we were taught that live fire is only used when the soldiers face immediate danger.

Fogel: Come, let’s move over to the level of values. Assuming that we understood the tactical level, as we cannot tolerate a crossing of our border or a violation of our border, let’s proceed to the level of values. I am not Ahmad Tibi, I am Zvika Fogel. I know how these orders are given. I know how a sniper does the shooting. I know how many authorizations he needs before he receives an authorization to open fire. It is not the whim of one or the other sniper who identifies the small body of a child now and decides he’ll shoot. Someone marks the target for him very well and tells him exactly why one has to shoot and what the threat is from that individual. And to my great sorrow, sometimes when you shoot at a small body and you intended to hit his arm or shoulder it goes even higher. The picture is not a pretty picture. But if that’s the price that we have to pay to preserve the safety and quality of life of the residents of the State of Israel, then that’s the price. But now, with your permission, let us go up one level and look at the overview. It is clear to you that Hamas is fighting for consciousness at the moment. It is clear to you and to me …

Nesiel: Is it hard for them to do? Aren’t we providing them with sufficient ammunition in this battle?

Fogel: We’re providing them but …

Nesiel: Because it does not do all that well for us, those pictures that are distributed around the world.

Fogel: Look, Ron, we’re even terrible at it. There’s nothing to be done, David always looks better against Goliath. And in this case, we are the Goliath. Not the David. That is entirely clear to me. But let’s look at it at the strategic level: you and I and a large part of the listeners are clear that this will not end up in demonstrations. It is clear to us that Hamas can’t continue to tolerate the fact that its rockets are not managing to hurt us, its tunnels are eroding …

Nesiel: Yes.

Fogel: And it doesn’t have too many suicide bombers who continue to believe the fairytale about the virgins waiting up there. It will drag us into a war. I do not want to be on the side that gets dragged. I want to be on the side that initiates things. I do not want to wait for the moment where it finds a weak spot and attacks me there. If tomorrow morning it gets into a military base or a kibbutz and kills people there and takes prisoners of war or hostages, call it as you like, we’re in a whole new script. I want the leaders of Hamas to wake up tomorrow morning and for the last time in their life see the smiling faces of the IDF. That’s what I want to have happen. But we are dragged along. So we’re putting snipers up because we want to preserve the values we were educated by. We can’t always take a single picture and put it before the whole world. We have soldiers there, our children, who were sent out and receive very accurate instructions about whom to shoot to protect us. Let’s back them up.

Nesiel: Brigadier-General (Res.) Zvika Fogel, formerly Head of the Southern Command Staff, thank you for your words.

Fogel: May you only hear good news. Thank you.

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Comments

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Sage24 replied on

These zionists keep showing their sadistic brutality, and consistently break international laws, acting like they are above all of it. Had this been Iran, the US/Israel/Saudi Arabia axis of evil would have bombed them, and made raised hell at the UN. Why are these western nations going against their own human rights policies, that they demand from other rogue nations, to keep giving this evil nation a free pass, overtime? In fact they keep rewarding it with billions of dollars and the shiniest of weapons, that they use on powerless, unarmed civilians, and kids.

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hotrod31 replied on

Absolutely! In a normal society, this psychopath would be committed, immediately. However, these Israeli monsters are from a different universe. Interestingly, this monster appears to see no hypocrisy with the IDF murderers criss-crossing into Gaza, at leisure, without consequence.

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Christopher Brickhill replied on

I do not want to devote time to commenting in detail on what this inhuman beast has said, other then saying that he is on another planet. Nothing he has said shows that he has any comprehension of what it is right to do.

The next step must be to prosecute him, and the hoard of Israelis, that have no issue with his actions, nor what he says.

So how do we do this?

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my2cents replied on

The ICC set-up is that IF a charge is of war crimes is considered valid by the Court it will pass the charge on to the "home country" in this case Israel for trial....of itself which is not likely to happen.
That leaves Universal Jurisdiction in which any country can charge war criminals, which as used by a Spanish Judge to arrest General Augusto Pinochet who was jailed in Britain for 1.5 years prior to being release due to poor health. That was followed by an arrest warrant for Henry Kissinger who has since Pinochet severely curtailed his travels and if he goes anywhere he is accompanied by a battery of attorneys. George W. and cohorts were tried and found guilty at an International War rimes Tribunal using Nuremberg laws in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. So Bush cannot go anywhere. While these folks are not in jail these warrants do serve as a form of house-arrest and the knowledge that the world sees them as criminals. If anyone believes that the disappearance of MH370 or the shooting down of MH17 was a coincidence rather than a payback please wake up. There are a number of outstanding warrants against a number of Israeli military/generals one of which upon landing at Heathrow was prevented from leaving the aircraft by Israeli Embassy personnel because he'd be arrested. He decided to go back home.

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Christopher Brickhill replied on

To my2cents, very many thanks for this.

I would like to take this further, and wonder whether you or anyone else can help.

I would like to make what you have said public knowledge and spread it as widely as I can.

Do you know how I can get the full details of all complaints and judgements made by the ICC against Israeli military personnel and politicians? Presumably this is in the public domain and I could get it from a database, ot the ICC directly. Does anyone have a contact at the ICC?

Given this information, I would write an article and push it out to as many as I can. I am surprised that this has not been done before. The Israelis will try to block it, but I doubt whether they will be successful in many cases, and if they do try, it will waste their time.

I write a blog. The last entry titled Death Adders in the Knesset, in a couple of weeks has had over a thousand hits. It says a few words about 6 Israeli politicians, Bennett, Danon, Ben-Dahan, Lieberman, Regev and Shaked, none of which should be free people. If a case against any one of them lies within the jurisdiction of the ICC, and I am able to be the catalyst for a case, I will do it.

Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated.

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Christopher Brickhill replied on

ICC actions date from 2002, and the court has informed me that there are no outstanding matters against Israel, its politicians and those of its military, except the current preliminary investigation concerning the current Israeli actions in Gaza.

Can you help me here? Do you mean International Court of Justice?

Cheers

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tom hall replied on

The general's comments are so twisted that if you were to unwind them, they wouldn't come out as words but yelps and snarls. Nevertheless, one of the important arguments cited by him in defense of the indefensible is the military chain of command's direct involvement in these shootings. He implicates commanders up the line in an attempt to characterisze the killings as carefully considered, rational decisions reached at high levels according to an established set of criteria and conveyed in the form of orders to junior personnel such as snipers. Thus, in trying to exonerate the assassins, he condemns the entire service. It's clear he doesn't possess a developed concept of law or even humanity. The racist ideology and sadism of his outlook should play an evidentiary role in his eventual prosecution. These officers and the government they serve must be held accountable for their atrocious conduct. Human rights groups should familiarise themselves with the travel plans of Israeli officials and apply for arrest warrants whenever and wherever they set foot outside Israel.

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Kamal Aron Chenoy replied on

As a Mizrahi Jew I am sickened and saddened by the killing of unarmed Palestinian children and adults in Gaza by Israeli snipers. If they are not killed then like Palestinian teenager Ahed Tamini a 16 year old is sentenced to a jail term. The international support to Palestine is grossly insufficient. The Arab, US and European support is grossly inadequate. The PA, Hamas and other groups/parties must unite, then others will follow. With very best wishes, Kamal (India).

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brad replied on

The general quoted points out how damn stupid their policy is!!!! He says that anyone approaching the fence deserves to be shot because they are endangering ........ something....

Wait a minute, didn't the morons take that into account when they built the illegal fence? So - going up to the fence should be no problem if it had been "intelligently designed and sited" - but the morons are now saying that they needed to put the fence an unspecified distance closer to the sea? Then they could have people walk up to the fence and not endanger the stolen lands with rock throwing or something...
What morons the Israeli's are. Vacuous, spiritual turds.

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Kerryn replied on

What happened to the commandment 'Thou shalt not kill'. Just so much religious hypocrisy. These Palestinian people are not even inside their borders so what is their problem? The killings are inexcusable. For the love of God leave them alone!

Ali Abunimah

Co-founder of The Electronic Intifada and author of The Battle for Justice in Palestine, now out from Haymarket Books.

Also wrote One Country: A Bold-Proposal to End the Israeli-Palestinian Impasse. Opinions are mine alone.