On 3 April 2002, The Electronic Intifada’s Ali Abunimah appeared on the Fox News Channel’s “Hannity & Colmes” show, hosted by Sean Hannity and Alan Colmes.

COLMES: Welcome back to HANNITY & COLMES. I’m Alan Colmes.

Coming up tonight, why is the pope coming down so hard on the Israelis and does the president’s handling of the situation threaten broader support for the war on terror? We’ll debate it later. Should drug-sniffing dogs invade our children’s schools? Well it’s happening in Florida, and we’ll debate that. And comedian Jackie Mason will be here.

First, are nations in the Middle East serious about making peace with Israel? Saddam Hussein is offering money for the families of suicide bombers. Iran was recently caught shipping arms to the Palestinian Authority and soldiers have been massing at the Lebanese border. Can the violence ever stop without the cooperation of the rest of the region?

We’re joined now by the Vice President of the Arab-American Action Committee, Ali Abunimah. Mr. Abunimah, welcome to the program.

(CROSSTALK)

COLMES: … have to start withdrawing, do you think they have to get out of the territories, there has to be negotiated peace or there’s never going to be peace. But let’s talk from your standpoint as a member of the Arab-American Action Network, what cope ability is there for the Palestinians? You must condemn these suicide bombers, correct?

ALI ABUNIMAH, ARAB-AMERICAN ACTION NETWORK: Absolutely. The suicide bombings are outrageous. They need to stop immediately, and they should be condemned by everyone.

(CROSSTALK)

COLMES: Well how should Israel, then, respond to them?

ABUNIMAH: Well I think we need to be consistent and recognize that three times as many innocent Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israel, deliberately targeted by Israel, nearly 400 of them children. And this has to stop equally, and I don’t hear any condemnation of that.

COLMES: All right, you’re accusing …

(CROSSTALK)

ABUNIMAH: All I hear is …

(CROSSTALK)

COLMES: … Israel of not just going into the territories and going after the military, but you’re accusing them of targeting - of targeting civilians …

ABUNIMAH: Yes …

COLMES: … and children?

ABUNIMAH: … it’s not me accusing them. Every human rights group that has looked into this from Amnesty International, Physicians for Human Rights USA, the Israeli group B’Tselem and countless reports from “The New York Times”, “The Washington Post”, “Harper’s Magazine,” all confirm there’s a mountain of evidence that Israel deliberately targets civilians.

COLMES: Why do you not speak out as forcibly, though, about Palestinians and those on the Arab side who might do the same thing?

ABUNIMAH: Well didn’t you just hear me? I just said that I condemn the suicide bombings, absolutely. They’re outrageous. They need to stop immediately. I condemn that completely. I don’t know why you’re saying I don’t.

COLMES: Well it seems that I often hear Arab groups talking about the atrocities, the Israelis, you believe perpetuate, but it would have a lot of credibility if you spoke equally about the atrocities on the other side because there are atrocities on both sides.

ABUNIMAH: Well I just said it - now I’ve said it twice in the space of a minute. But I - what I don’t hear, I don’t hear from President Bush, I don’t hear from you any condemnation. It seems like you don’t care that three times as many Palestinians have been killed, targeted — deliberately targeted for killing by Israel, that it’s open season on Palestinians and the occupied territories. I mean what we’re supposed to believe is that 400 Israelis have been killed by deliberate malicious murder, and yet three times as many Palestinians have somehow just dropped dead on their own.

COLMES: Look I …

(CROSSTALK)

COLMES: … care and I absolutely …

ABUNIMAH: I don’t understand …

COLMES: … as I’ve said over and over again …

ABUNIMAH: … the double standard.

COLMES: … that Israel should get out of those territories.

ABUNIMAH: Yes and you know Israel claims it’s defending itself. We just heard that, but I’ll tell you one thing, self defense does not include keeping tens of thousands of soldiers outside your borders in someone else’s land, ruling over millions of people by military dictatorship, the worst possible form of tyranny …

COLMES: You know Mr. …

ABUNIMAH: … taking away their land and giving it to armed settlers. That’s aggression. That’s colonialism, it’s not self-defense.

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: I’m going to — can you hear me? Look, first of all, what you just said is so factually inaccurate, so false, so defamatory, I’m not even going to address it. But for the sake of …

ABUNIMAH: Well why don’t you …

HANNITY: … our audience …

ABUNIMAH: … address it?

HANNITY: I’m going to tell them …

ABUNIMAH: Why don’t you address it?

(CROSSTALK)

ABUNIMAH: Why don’t you address it?

(CROSSTALK)

ABUNIMAH: Because it’s absolutely true.

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: Because what you’re — what you’re …

(CROSSTALK)

ABUNIMAH: It’s absolutely true.

HANNITY: All right.

ABUNIMAH: Look, the United States, Colin Powell said it last November the occupation has to end.

HANNITY: He’s never said it.

ABUNIMAH: Kofi Annan, the U.N. secretary-general, just said Israel’s illegal occupation has to end. The whole world is saying it, even the Pope …

HANNITY: Can I ask you a question?

ABUNIMAH: … even the pope.

HANNITY: Am I — wait …

ABUNIMAH: … condemned Israel’s …

HANNITY: Ali …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: … Ali, can you hear me?

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: Can you hear me?

ABUNIMAH: Are you saying the Pope is wrong? I can hear you.

HANNITY: All right, don’t filibuster please. I’ll ask some questions, you can give us some answers. I’ll give you adequate time to answer. You know, but look, in the 1970s King Hussein unleashed a war against Palestinians, 1970 …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: … can I finish …

ABUNIMAH: What has this got to do with anything?

HANNITY: Ali …

ABUNIMAH: I mean …

HANNITY: Ali …

ABUNIMAH: .. you just don’t …

HANNITY: … can I …

ABUNIMAH: … want to talk about …

HANNITY: … can I — can I …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: … can I finish because …

(CROSSTALK)

ABUNIMAH: Yes, you don’t want to talk about the fact that there is an Israeli military dictatorship 35 years of in the occupied territories.

HANNITY: Ali …

ABUNIMAH: You don’t want to talk about it.

HANNITY: … I’m going to ask you one more time respectively, let me get my question out, let me get my statement out and for the sake of our audience as politely as I can ask you, I’m going to ask …

ABUNIMAH: Yes.

HANNITY: … you need to be quiet until I’m finished, and then I’ll give you a chance to respond. We understand each other? OK. Here’s what I want to point out to you, in the 1970s King Hussein in Jordan unleashed a civil war against the Palestinian in his - in this country because he was concerned that his regime was about to toppled. There are over 100,000 casualties at that time. The Egyptians, the Saudis, Iranians, you know, they condemn the actions - did they? No, they didn’t at the point and when he died, he was …

ABUNIMAH: Well …

HANNITY: … considered — let me finish, he was considered a moderate leader at the time. If you go back and look at other, you know, history in the region, you see similarly a lot of things happen there. And that’s the point - you want to talk about occupation being the main thing, but we’re dealing specifically with targeted attacks against women and children …

ABUNIMAH: Absolutely …

HANNITY: … which is not happening …

(CROSSTALK)

ABUNIMAH: … by the …

(CROSSTALK)

ABUNIMAH: Well no - well that’s where you’re wrong. I mean, as I just said …

HANNITY: No, I’m right.

ABUNIMAH: … there’s an mountain of evidence - look, what you’re - let me give one example out of 1,200 examples. On November 22nd last year, the Israelis planted a bomb in Khan Yunis refugee camp in the Gaza Strip. It blew up and killed five school children on their way to school in the middle of a residential area, and there are literally hundreds of examples like that. None of them have been investigated by the Israelis, and what you’re doing by denying this mountain of evidence …

HANNITY: Mr. Ali …

ABUNIMAH: … is the intellectual equivalence …

HANNITY: … I’m going to say this as respectively as I can for our audience …

ABUNIMAH: Look you …

HANNITY: … you are …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: … I’m saying this as respectively as I can. You are right now on this program spewing misinformation and propaganda inaccuracies and things …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: … that are not true.

ABUNIMAH: You know …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: You are accusing Israel …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: … of being a terrorist nation …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: … when they themselves are the victims of terror.

ABUNIMAH: Well you know obviously you didn’t listen to a word I said because I condemned …

HANNITY: I heard everything you said.

ABUNIMAH: … the suicide bombings three times. Now you’re saying that somehow I am condoning it.

HANNITY: I’m saying …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: … when you said that Israel is a terrorist nation …

ABUNIMAH: I didn’t …

HANNITY: … when you say they target children …

(CROSSTALK)

ABUNIMAH: … I didn’t say that.

HANNITY: … and when you point out that they killed …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: … it is for the sake of our audience so that they get a fair and balance view, the - I am telling you that it is an inaccuracy and what’s happening here …

ABUNIMAH: Well all they have to do …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: And what you’re doing by saying …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: … that is you’re creating - quote - “justification” for the terror that we’re watching unfold …

ABUNIMAH: We can …

HANNITY: … before our eyes now.

ABUNIMAH: … we can settle this right now Sean. All your viewers need to do is go onto the Web sites of Amnesty International, even the State …

HANNITY: A left wing …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: … group like Amnesty International, sir, is hardly a …

ABUNIMAH: Yes there’s always excuses …

HANNITY: … hardly a credible source for anybody …

ABUNIMAH: What you’re doing - what you’re doing is the intellectual equivalent of holocaust denial, which means taking a mountain of evidence and denying it simply because you hate a certain …

HANNITY: Sir …

ABUNIMAH: … group of people.

HANNITY: … wait a minute - I got to address …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: … sir, sir …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: Sir, sir …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: … I - sir - let me - let me …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: Sir …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: … don’t insult me personally. I didn’t insult you personally. But let me tell you one thing I do disagree with you on, I hate …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: … all right here’s my …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: … here’s my agenda.

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: My agenda is we’re watching unfold every night on TV innocent men, women and children targeted and …

ABUNIMAH: Yes but you don’t care …

HANNITY: .. while you say …

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: .. . condemn it, you come up with misinformation to justify it.

(CROSSTALK)

ABUNIMAH: Well look …

HANNITY: … and that’s what’s morally …

(CROSSTALK)

ABUNIMAH: You know the great thing is that your viewers don’t have to believe me. They can go to the State Department Web site, Physicians for Human Rights USA …

(CROSSTALK)

ABUNIMAH: … even the Israeli Human Rights group B’Tselem …

(CROSSTALK)

COLMES: Would you acknowledge Ali …

(CROSSTALK)

COLMES: … that …

(CROSSTALK)

COLMES: Let me - let me - we only have a moment left. Would you acknowledge that Yasser Arafat cannot bring peace? He has not done what he needs to do to bring peace to the region. He eventually has to be replaced. There has to be somebody else who could take that job.

ABUNIMAH: Oh this is a complete Red Herring. Look, when Yasser Arafat is six feet under, the Israelis will still be out there on the TV screens blaming him for giving orders from beyond the grave. This is about Israel’s military tyranny and the occupied territory, something that you will do anything to avoid talking about.

COLMES: Well not me …

(CROSSTALK)

ABUNIMAH: Because …

(CROSSTALK)

COLMES: I - look - not me …

(CROSSTALK)

COLMES: Look …

ABUNIMAH: Yes I give you credit …
COLMES: First of all Ali …

(CROSSTALK)

ABUNIMAH: I give you credit …

COLMES: … I condemn what Sharon has done, but on the other hand, I don’t think the Palestinians have shown any leadership either. They don’t have anybody (UNINTELLIGIBLE) negotiate a peace or convince…

ABUNIMAH: Well you know that’s not …

COLMES: … their people to accept the peace.

ABUNIMAH: … look, that’s just not true. The Palestinians negotiated beyond Camp David all the way to Taba. They were apparently making progress until Ehud Barak broke it off and since then the Israeli government has absolutely refused to negotiate. This evening one of your competitor networks is reporting that President Bush requested that Anthony Zinni be allowed to see Yasser Arafat and Sharon refused. So we have the - we have Israel standing in the way of the United States …

COLMES: Frankly …

ABUNIMAH: … efforts to end this conflict.

COLMES: … many people believe the United States …

(CROSSTALK)

ABUNIMAH: Israel isn’t interested in …

COLMES: Mr. Abunimah, many people believe …

(CROSSTALK)

COLMES: … hold on - hold on a second. We don’t have a dialogue here.

(CROSSTALK)

ABUNIMAH: And it wants to throw the Palestinians into the desert …

(CROSSTALK)

COLMES: Many people believe that we should send a higher-level official than Zinni, that Colin Powell or somebody of like stature should go …

ABUNIMAH: I agree with that.

COLMES: … and I think that’s …

(CROSSTALK)

ABUNIMAH: I agree - I agree with you 100 percent. What we need is the United States to recognize - you know the United States thinks it’s being a friend for Israel - I’ll tell you what kind of friend it is …

COLMES: You have 10 seconds.

ABUNIMAH: … it’s the kind of friend that gets you drunk, gets you high, gives you the keys to the car and says go out and have fun.

COLMES: All right.

ABUNIMAH: That’s the kind of friend the United States is for Israel.

COLMES: We have to part company. Thank you for being with us tonight. Coming up, the Pope is criticizing Israel and some people in Europe blame the U.S. for not doing more. Has U.S. lost support of its allies overseas? Former NATO Ambassador Robert Hunter will be here when we come back.

Later, are schools turning into a police state? We’ll debate that later as well.

[ends]